Nicole Meier is a multi-published author and book coach living in the Pacific Northwest. Her debut novel, THE HOUSE OF BRADBURY, was chosen as a Best Book of 2016 by Refinery29. Her second book, THE GIRL MADE OF CLAY, was named a Top Book according to Bookbub readers. Her newest novel, THE SECOND CHANCE SUPPER CLUB, is out now. If you’ve always wanted to write a novel listen now.
Nicole has taught writing workshops in schools, libraries, wellness retreats, and writers’ conferences. She currently works as a book coach for fiction writers, helping them bring their stories to life.
Her works have been published in The Oregonian, Cascade Journal, Southern Oregon Magazine, Women Writers Women’s Books, Brazen Woman, and more.
Find her online at @nicolemeierwrites on Instagram.
https://www.skillshare.com/profile/Nicole-Meier/744480899
https://www.womensfictionwriters.org/
https://www.nicolemeierauthor.com/books
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REMARKS – I Always Wanted to Write A Novel
Hi Everyone. What do you like to read? Are you a fan of fiction? What kinds of stories grip you or transport you? Have you wanted to write your own? My guest, Nicole Meier, has published three novels and didn’t get started writing seriously until she turned 40.
In our conversation she talks about the self doubt that held her back at first and how she overcame it. She was helped along the way by a generous community of fellow writers.
That struck me in particular because I’ve been hearing that a lot from guests and seeing it myself. There are friendly and helpful colleagues in just about every field available to help newbies who are serious about learning. I’m emphasizing this point because I know I tend to default to thinking no one wants to answer my dumb question or that experienced person won’t have time for little old me. But I don’t think that’s the case anymore and holding on to that mistaken belief can really limit us.
As Nicole says, you need to do your homework and put in your effort but trust that you will find the mentors and resources you need to help you along the way. If writing fiction is your path, this episode could be one of them.
Here’s the interview.
TRANSCRIPT – I Always Wanted to Write A Novel
Liz Sumner
My guest today is Nicole Meier. Nicole is the author of three women’s fiction novels. And she currently works as a book coach for fiction writers, helping them bring their stories to life. Welcome, Nicole.
Nicole Meier
Thank you. It’s so nice to be here.
Liz Sumner
So tell me, have you always wanted to be a writer?
Nicole Meier
I think the answer to that is yes, I said the word thinking there because although I’ve always wanted to be a writer, I definitely had doubts along the way. But yes, I’ve always been an avid reader, the library was my safe haven. And I just always wanted to tell stories. But it took me a while to figure out how to do that.
Liz Sumner
I want to hear about how you learned how to do that. I also am curious about your doubts, because I bet that a lot of listeners have experienced the same thing.
Nicole Meier
And I can kind of explain that a little further. So I, I went to school for writing. So in college, you know, that was my major creative writing. I definitely loved it. I knew that. That’s where I wanted to be. But I always thought that I wasn’t enough. You know, even though I got good grades and my stories, were getting recognition, I worked on the college paper. I just had self doubts, because I didn’t think that I was maybe edgy enough or smart enough or unique enough. So what I did after college was I went and I worked for different editors of magazines, and I shadowed the editors to kind of see how they got to where they did. But I really just kind of grappled with “Am I unique enough to go out there and tell a story and get it published.” And I grappled with that all the way until, gosh, almost my 40th birthday.
Liz Sumner
Wow, what what was particularly helpful in letting go of that.
Nicole Meier
You know, other women, I have to say I’ve had some really good mentors, and people kind of lift me up along the way. I will say from my experience, the writing community is inclusive and supportive. And thank goodness, it wasn’t cutthroat, at least in my experience. So I actually started doing some freelance work again, for magazines, and I had one particular editor that I can think of that was really amazing and helpful and encouraging. And it was the best lesson for me because I learned how to not only tell stories, but how to reach an audience, and how to work with an editor and, you know, graciously accept edits, not to be defensive about my work and really just learn how to hone my craft. So yeah, there have been other women along the way.
There was also I had a blog at that time, where I would interview other authors for travel reads, you know, kind of armchair travel. And one author I interviewed I can’t believe she even responded to me. But I saw her in the Oprah Magazine, and I decided to send her an email just on a whim, thinking she’s not going to get back to me, she’s too big. But she did. And she graciously accepted my invitation to be on my blog for an interview. And at the end I secretly shared with her I was working on a manuscript. And not only did she encouraged me, she gave me her home address and said, you can send me the full manuscript, and I will read it and give you notes. Yeah, so it’s other women who have really lifted me up in that way. And I’m so grateful.
Liz Sumner
I have had two conversations recently with guests, with podcast guests, who said the same things that in their field, the community was incredibly welcoming and warm and helpful. And another guest specifically said, go for it ask reach out to the people that scare you a little bit, because why not? So that’s so cool that you have proven both of those points. So when did you first start writing with serious intent?
Nicole Meier
Yeah, that’s a great question. So like I said, I was doing a lot of freelance gigs for different lifestyle magazines. But on the side, I was secretly working on a manuscript and a friend. And I didn’t tell anyone, a friend was interested in writing. And she invited me this was maybe back in 2012, to the San Francisco Writers Conference. I’d never been to writers conference before, I didn’t know what to expect. I maybe only had three chapters of a manuscript written. But I’m telling you when I walked into that lobby, and it was full of agents and editors and writers and publishers. I just knew I’d found my people and that really lit my fire I want to do to be a part of that world. So I got serious.
Liz Sumner
That’s very cool. So so probably your recommendation might be or one of your resources might be for listeners to go to a Writers Conference.
Nicole Meier
Absolutely go to somewhere where you know, other writers are getting together. It could be a writers workshop. It could be your library. It could be a conference.But commune with other writers because honestly, there’s no other kind of inspiration when you’re a creative person. I really recommend that.
Liz Sumner
Good. Okay, well, we’ll get to more of that. But so so how did you go from wannabe writer to published author?
Nicole Meier
Right. So that was a huge learning curve. I think it still is for all writers. And even if you’re an established author, the market keeps changing. So we’re all kind of relearning things as the market shifts. But I did my homework in a big way I saw, you know, there was another writer that I reached out to who had some great books published, and I said, What’s your recommendation to me. And she gave me two words, and that was start small. And at the time, I have to say that it irritated me. Because I wanted something I could sink my teeth into some really good advice. But I took a minute and I sat with her words, and she was correct. All writers need to start small somewhere to build that experience, like I said, just to learn how to work with an editor to learn how to reach an audience.
So I started, I actually applied for an ad to be with my local visitors association to write their travel blog once a week. And that was my very first, you know, dipping of my toe back into the writing worlds. I was almost 40. So I knew by my 40th birthday, I really wanted to get this career going again. And then from there, I started getting hired to do you know, like I said, that magazine jobs. And then I went to the conference and started really working on a book. When the manuscript was done, I started pitching agents, probably in a blind fury, like just, you know, too many pitches at one time, because I was so ready.
But I also wasn’t ready.
And I don’t know if any of your listeners have been through this. But pitching agents, I always tell people, it’s kind of like the American Idol. For writers, it’s like, you have to show off and say, Look at me, I’m special and look at, you know, my craft. And there’s so many people in line in front of you, and behind you wanting the same thing. And so the editor, the agents all said declined. They all passed, but they don’t pass usually with any feedback. So it’s actually really difficult. And then nine months later, one agent wrote back a very thoughtful email chapter by chapter why the story wasn’t working. And that was a gift. Yeah, that was a huge gift. Because even though she passed, it was at least feedback. So I put that manuscript in a drawer, and I started something new. And then that was the book that I knew should be published the other one, it was my practice novel, I wasn’t ready.
Liz Sumner
So how did you eventually get get an agent? Or am I jumping ahead? Am I shouldn’t, okay,
Liz Sumner
You’re not jumping ahead at all. So that book is called the House of Bradbury, that was my first book. And I actually knew what it was like to pitch agents. And I knew it could take anywhere from three days to two years. Honestly, my agent tells me now sometimes agents don’t go back to writers who pitch him for two years. So I knew it was a long window. And I didn’t want to go through that, again, because I was so eager. So I actually got connected with the owner of a hybrid press. And hybrid for anyone that doesn’t know is a combination of self publishing and traditional publishing, where it’s very collaborative, the writer spends a certain amount and the publisher spends a certain amount, but you still get royalties.
So they vetted me, they read my manuscript, they signed me with a contract. And they published my book, it actually wound up getting some nice press was in some different newspapers and magazines, and from there to literary agents reached out to me and offered representation for my next work. So I did sign with someone Abbey Sol of the Lark Group who I just adore. And then she was able to pitch my next two books to a bigger traditional press, which is called Lake Union, and they’re actually owned by Amazon, Amazon actually owns a publishing house. So that was my journey.
Liz Sumner
So that sounds like a wise step for somebody to go the hybrid route.
Nicole Meier
Yes, I mean, honestly, I, there’s so many pros and cons of each way to go. But I love the hybrid or the small press, because it’s so collaborative. You get to have say, as an author, about everything, from your title to your cover art to the way that the story is being edited. A lot of times with the bigger publishers, it’s prestige, and it’s a big distribution, and it’s exciting. But a lot of friends I know you know, they don’t know their book cover until the box is delivered to their front door. And so that’s why I actually like the smaller experience because it feels like I have more control.
Liz Sumner
But I can imagine that somebody who hadn’t done as much homework as you had somebody who didn’t have as much experience in the other ways of working with editors and stuff wouldn’t be as suited for a hybrid kind of experience.
Nicole Meier
You know, it just depends. You’re right, it depends. But I felt like people were really working with me explaining the process along the way. Self publishing is also a terribly, or I shouldn’t say terribly, it’s a very rewarding path for so many people. Because you make money, you’re in complete control. It’s very exciting. But you have to be so dedicated, and you have to show up every day and treat it like a small business. So I think hybrid and small press is the next step, if you don’t want to be running a small business, in that capacity, work with someone collaboratively to get your work out there.
Liz Sumner
So you spoke of a couple of avenues of that were travel related. But your your books are women’s contemporary fiction, did you explore different genres? When you’re thinking up stories?
Nicole Meier
Yeah, I mean, those those are loosely connected. So my blog originally was a travel blog, because I have two older sisters and both of our parents have passed away. And since they passed a we kind of made a commitment that we would travel once a year together. And, you know, we take turns planning the trip, and we’d have people stop us all the time when we’re traveling, saying, You girls are laughing so much and so connected, and what’s your secret? And who are you? Are you friends are you sisters, and so I started the blog because of that, because other people would say, I’d love to take a trip with my best friend or my sibling. But really family is parts, you know, so family fueled that, and then family is the common thread throughout my next three books. So I do really incorporate a lot of elements of family.
Liz Sumner
I get it. Okay. So tell me about writing fiction, as opposed to memoir, or nonfiction or other things.
Nicole Meier
Fiction is kind of my wheelhouse, you know, that’s what I know. And that’s what I love to do. I love to just dream up characters and settings and stories. You know, there’s definitely parts of it, they’re inspired by real life. I think there’s something unique about fiction, we’re all storytelling, right? Whether it’s nonfiction, or an essay, or an article or fiction, it all depends on, you know, creating a story with a hook. But I think fiction goes one step beyond in my personal opinion, is that it creates empathy with the reader. And I love that idea. You can have a good character or a bad character. But somehow we need to find empathy when we’re reading the story, and want to root for that character and want to see the journey and want to see them evolve.
So I think fiction is a little bit unique in that way. So yes, and I feel the same way when I’m coaching that I really am only taking on fiction writers because it’s something that I just love and could talk about all day. Whereas I’ve worked with some nonfiction writers, and I’ve, I’ve been really proud of them and excited for them. But I don’t connect in the same way that I do with fiction.
Liz Sumner
I get it. So tell me about what a book coach does. How do you work with clients?
Nicole Meier
Yeah, that’s a great question. I think book coaching is kind of a new career out there, or a new avenue that a lot of people don’t understand or know yet, which is actually kind of exciting to be, you know, at the beginning stages of that. There’s so many different kinds of coaches out there, as we all know. But book coaching is someone it’s a professional that will walk with you from concept all the way to publication, if you want. So for me, I didn’t have someone like this in my corner when I was writing a novel, and I kind of forced my literary agent to be that person. I forced her to be my friend, to be my support, to be my editor, and to give me ideas, you know, lists of who to pitch. I mean, I really, and she was, she is lovely. And she did all that for me. But what I didn’t realize that I needed back then what I do now is I needed a coach. So for me, when I take on a client, I would say 90% of the time, they’re just in the beginning stages of a manuscript. And we really flesh out the why of their work and the point of their work.
And, you know, people say, oh, I want to be a New York Times bestseller, but if you really start talking to them five minutes into it, you realize they’re not writing what they thought they they want to do, right? They’re writing what they thought they should write, you know, what, what their family would be proud of, or what they’re supposed to do for the industry. So we get to the why, you know, sometimes I have authors come to me and say I’m writing a novel and it’s gonna be, you know, a mystery and this and that, and then we really get into the kind of the workbooks that I do with people. And I realize you’re writing self help you’re writing, you know, a wellness book, this isn’t a novel at all. So do you know write what’s in your heart? And then they get really excited. And then we take it on a new path.
So from there, after we get to kind of what I call the creative brief, you know, the why and the point, and who is your audience? And what’s the market? And what do you really want for this book in terms of just getting into the hands of a few or the masses, then we get into the story and developmental editing, which is all about character and plot and pacing. We do a lot of rewrites. And then when we move beyond that, when the work is polished to the, you know, best of the writers ability, we start thinking about a game plan. Okay, who are we pitching? Are we self publishing? Are we pitching agents? And how are we going to go about that? So really, it’s someone who will stay with you and cheer you on, but also help you refine your work as you move forward?
Liz Sumner
And if somebody wanted to work with you, would they be able to take a slice of that path, rather than the whole experience?
Nicole Meier
Yeah, that’s a great point. Yes, I offer different packages. So some people say, you know, what’s my most popular package right now is they just want a mini kickstart. So I’ve got this idea, I just want that kickstart that creative boost from you. So we work together in three sessions. And then you know, nine times out of 10, they come back to me a month later and say, I’m ready to do the full on monthly book coaching. But I do have things like that, where do you want me to just do developmental editing for your first 25 pages? Great, I’m happy to do that. You know, sometimes we just need a little push. And then we can go back to our work and and just get back into the bubble.
Liz Sumner
And say a little bit more about what developmental editing is.
Nicole Meier
Yeah, so there’s developmental editing, and there’s copy editing, and then there’s proofreading. So I do the first so developmental editing is looking at the big picture. So your whole story is structured in a way that makes sense. Is the pacing on target? Or do we need to rearrange some chapters and the way it goes? Is your character development there is your setting enhanced enough? Things like that. So I’m not doing inline edits, changing your grammar, because that’s for the copy editor. I don’t do that. I think that it’s more important to talk about the story and build that foundation first. And then when you go into work with a publisher, they will give you the copy editor, they will give you the proofreader,
Liz Sumner
I get it. Okay. So what are some misconceptions that that inexperienced writers might have?
Nicole Meier
You know, I think this can be said for a lot of entertainment industry. So you could say this about a singer or an actor. Some people think you just show up and you just write one draft, and you sign with Random House and away you go. You know, if you think about a songwriter, they didn’t just show up one day with a song on a piece of paper at the production studio and say, you know, I’d like I’d love a contract, let’s go, they are really working on their craft. A lot of times with a singing coach or a writing coach. They’re collaborating with producers. You know, it’s the same thing with with writing. It’s building that network, it’s fine tuning your writing. And it’s doing a lot of research. So read books in your genre, I cannot tell you how many writers come to me and say, Okay, I want to write thrillers. Great. What are the thrillers that you love already? Oh, I haven’t read any thrillers in a few years. And you just think, read read widely? You know, so I think there’s a misconception that people think they can skip so many steps and be successful just because they’ve written something, you need to do the work you need to show up. And, you know, do your research.
Liz Sumner
And one of the things you said earlier is about taking edits graciously. How does that happen?
Nicole Meier
You know, writing is such a personal thing, we are pouring our heart and souls onto the page and when someone critiques that it can sting. So you know, a good editor or a good book coach will know how to make suggestions in the right way to keep your writer open. But also as the writer, it’s important to listen. And if you’re getting a lot of no’s and rejections, there’s a reason it’s not that it’s not the editors fault, because they just don’t understand, you know, if you’re getting 5-6-7 no’s in a row, there’s something with the work that’s not clicking with the person reading it. So it’s, it’s about really listening. You don’t have to accept every edit that someone suggests, but you need to consider it.
Liz Sumner
Yeah,
Liz Sumner
Tell me about the experience of getting your very first book published.
Nicole Meier
Oh, yeah. That was magical. And I have to say people still ask me because I have three books out there, which is your favorite. And I always say the first, not because it was my best, but because there’s nothing like a first and the feeling is like a honeymoon phase. There’s nothing like getting that box delivered to your doorstep full of paperbacks, you know, or hard backs. There’s nothing like holding it for the first time and just having readers read it for the first time. So I got it. When I see other authors, you know, maybe sometimes they’ll do a quick video on social media of opening a box of books, I get so excited for them, and I can feel that joy all over again. That’s very cool. Yeah.
Liz Sumner
What do you wish that you had known that you didn’t learn when you were coming up?
Nicole Meier
That it’s a long game. It’s not a short game, and you have to put in the work and just know if it doesn’t happen in the next six months it will happen. But you have to have some stick-to-itiveness.
Liz Sumner
What do you do in the meantime?
Nicole Meier
You just keep working and keep you know a journal of all your story ideas that you want to develop because it’s always good to have work on the back burner because you never know when a publisher will say we’re interested but what else do you have and then you have to pitch two stories at once.
Liz Sumner
Got it. That’s good. Thank you
Liz Sumner
What are some resources, both your own and any others that you want to recommend for aspiring novelists?
Liz Sumner
Yes, that is a great question. I truly feel like there’s no better time than now we have so many resources available, especially online, when we’re stuck at home. It used to be in the old days, you know, you would go to the library and look things up. But now you have it all at your fingertips. So there are great online courses. Gosh, there’s so many online courses that can really help you. I actually like Skillshare. It’s kind of like the Netflix of learning. There’s so many cool, established authors, and then just writing coaches on there who can teach you just little snippets at a time. I because I wrote women’s fiction, I love the women’s fiction writers association. So it’s for female writers, but it’s just such a great support system. And they have a lot of free webinars, and they have pitch sessions and critique groups. Writer’s Digest continues to be a great resource for articles on the industry. And then yeah, I would just say, find your favorite couple of authors that you admire, and read the acknowledgments page of their book and see who their agent was, who their editor was, what writing group that they mentioned. And, and kind of look into that because there’s so many resources available.
Liz Sumner
That’s a wonderful list of suggestions, I will put the links to the online ones in the show notes. So what are you working on now?
Nicole Meier
I’m working on coaching. You know, it’s so funny, I had no idea would end up here. I really didn’t. I haven’t written anything in about a year. And I’m okay with that. Because falling into this coaching job has been so fulfilling. I just am so excited for other people. So I’m eager to take them on this journey. And I’ll get back to writing one of these days. But right now, I’m just having too much fun.
Liz Sumner
That sounds great. Do you have your own courses that people can sign up for?
Nicole Meier
Yeah, I do. Actually, I’m a teacher on Skillshare. So I have one course on there. If you just look up Nicole Meier, and then people can– I did a lot of workshops last year, this year, I’m doing more one-on-ones, but people can really follow me on Instagram. That’s where I’m always there. And I always have tips and tricks and advice. And then they can also look at my packages if they want one-on-one support.
Liz Sumner
That’s wonderful. This has been really juicy. Helpful. Was there anything you’d like to say in conclusion?
Nicole Meier
No, I just thank you for this opportunity. And I love that you’re just spreading the word with people who want to be inspired and create and learn more. So thank you so much for this platform.
Liz Sumner
It’s my pleasure. My thanks to Nicole Meier. You can find out more about her books, her courses and her recommendations in the show notes. I invite everyone to write and tell me what you’ve always wanted to try. I’m Liz Sumner, reminding you to be bold. And thanks for listening.
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Additional music by Michael Cohen
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