Catherine is an audio storyteller and ceramicist based in Oakland, CA, where they produce and host Material Feels, a podcast exploring the intimate relationship between artists and their materials. They began to make ceramics as a teen and considers the ceramics studio another version of home. They’ve worked as a fine art framer, gardener, ceramics instructor and art supply copywriter. Their writing has been published in The New York Times, WIRED, The British Medical Journal, Leonardo Magazine and Art Dog, an art supply industry blog.
CXM Productions – http://www.cxmproductions.com/
MaterialFeelsPodcast.com
REMARKS
Hi everyone. Listening to Catherine Monahon talk about ceramics got me thinking about my own creative pursuits. Their world is tangible. The clay is gritty or buttery. Catherine talks about the physical elements in it and the way you work it to make all the particles align. Listening to them describe the qualities of the material made me realize that I create in a much more abstract way.
Sound waves are of course physical but I don’t think of them that way. I do use my hands but most often on a keyboard or a mouse. I produce artifacts but they’re mostly digital. People who create with touchable materials must have a different experience when they create and I’m curious about it.
Catherine was a great bridge between the physical and the abstract because as a podcaster, and storyteller as well as a ceramicist they know how to speak of the solid and intangible in ways that I can understand and find fascinating. I hope you agree. Here’s the interview.
TRANSCRIPT
Liz Sumner
My guest today, Catherine Monahan, is an audio storyteller and artist and host of the podcast Material Feels. When I listened to their episode from October on ceramics, the description of the properties of clay and the whole firing process, I was captivated. And I wanted to learn more. Welcome, Catherine.
Catherine Monahon
Thanks so much for having me, Liz.
Liz Sumner
So, tell me how you discovered ceramics.
Catherine Monahon
Uh, well, ceramics kind of discovered me in the sense that I was not expecting it. I didn’t even know what the word ceramics meant. I was 13. And I had signed up for a painting class, I was a freshman in high school. And I was expecting really looking forward to being in a painting class. And I had this grand plan of being an art major and being a painter. And the class was full. So I got put in a ceramics course. And I didn’t even know what that I was like, What is ceramics? That sounds weird. And what is this? What am I gonna be working with. And I was in the class with somebody who ended up being one of my best friends in high school. And the teacher was fabulous, he was had so much personality, and I loved it. And I just, I just fell into ceramics for the rest of high school. That was like my thing.
Liz Sumner
I listened to the last couple of your podcasts. And you go into really fascinating detail about the fundamentals of of clay, and I want to definitely send people to Material Feels so they can get the whole thing. But give, can you give us a taste of the kind of detail you talked about?
Catherine Monahon
Sure, sure. So I, I explore the material, like the really our relationship is the material in the sense of pressing into it and moving it and rolling it out. But I also go a little deeper and talk about like the microscopic makeup of the material and how the, the different particles in it line up and why wedging it is good, which is when you kind of need it and how it transforms with heat through the firing process and and what glazing can do. And I actually learned about this over the course of the 20 years that I’ve worked with clay. And it wasn’t the kind of thing that I was even interested in when I was a teenager or even in my 20s.
But as I started to, you know, you find ceramic studios, and you are a member, or you maybe you’re a kiln tech, or you volunteer and do work trade. And so as I’ve, as I’ve explored the world, I’ve had lots of different kinds of mentors, and I’ve learned more and more, and there’s just it’s like peeling back layers, like there’s always more to learn about it. And I think when you spend so much time with the material, you begin to get acquainted with it as if it’s a best friend or a lover or a family member. And so, yeah, and so you the particulars begin to be important and fascinating. And so I do in my, in my show, I do explore, like, down to the molecular makeup of the material to how you can push it and how it can be wacky and weird. And that’s stuff that just like through quality time, it’d be it begins to be I think, fascinating.
Liz Sumner
I can imagine that somebody can learn how to to make ceramics without knowing that kind of detail. But what else? I mean, you said that it helps you get to know the material. What what other things? Why is it important to know the fundamentals before you start working with or as you are working with the material.
Catherine Monahon
When someone begins working with clay, it’s not not important, they shouldn’t worry about it. Because a lot of people have creative blocks and it will make them feel like they don’t know enough that they have to study it. But after you get some experience with it, it’s kind of like it’s kind of like just like the next stage in the relationship where you you start to wonder why why is porcelain different from from earthenware? Why is where does this clay come from? How do people harvest clay like there’s a kind of a whole world to it and, and if you can, once you make like a sort of a heart connection with the material, then I feel like you can get into the headspace and it’s just a cycle that keeps building until you have, like a really meaningful part of your life is is connected to the material world.
Liz Sumner
I’ve not worked with clay before. I’ve seen people do it and it’s magical how somehow a little lump turns into something so just by being on a spinning wheel, but I never thought about it the way that you describe it, it really makes it much more interesting to me. So okay, so is there a particular pattern? In your experience? Have you seen people come to working with ceramics in in a certain way, or people come from lots of different avenues in order– and discover it in different ways? What’s your experience?
Catherine Monahon
That’s a great question. I think that a lot of adults will take a class, they’ll do a one off class, they’ll maybe do a class with as a date, or they’ll go in with a friend or get adult class usually at night. And they might try it out for a one time thing or a couple weeks. A lot of I was a ceramics instructor at a children’s studio. And so a lot of kids would come through and it would kind of be their like after school decompression fun time. And some people like at the at the ceramics studio, Merritt Ceramics in Oakland where I’m a member, when I’m like chatting with other members, some people started, they’re making amazing things that that they started two years ago, three years ago. So it’s not the kind of thing where like, like, I’ve just always had clay in my life, since I was 13. But I don’t, I don’t think you really need to do it for 20 years to like, to be good at it. I mean, then be that might be a controversial thing to say. But I really think that you can dive in. And then if you love it, and you do it a lot. And within a couple of years, like you’ll be making stuff that you’re that you’re proud of. I love that. When I talked to other people in the studio and the that I’m a part of a lot of people picked up ceramics during the pandemic. And you know, this Yeah. So they were able to come into the studio and it was everyone was wearing masks as well ventilated, and not a lot of people. So the pandemic actually opened up some some awareness where people were looking for connection, looking for something to do and looking for a way to create that felt safe. So that’s that’s one way that people have found ceramics recently.
Liz Sumner
What are the different ways of working with clay that you recommend, certainly for beginners?
Catherine Monahon
Sure, I mean, hopping on the wheel is always a good idea. I do think it helps to have a mentor or be in a class for that. Handbuilding is pretty accessible. And you can use a lot of tools at home with hand building and making, you know, forms, functional forms or sculptures, you can roll out clay and make imprints and stamp things on it or carve it. You can use it for sculpture. And then you know, you mentioned that I have talked about Polymer Clay recently on my show. And Polymer Clay is very accessible, because the differences is that the main difference is that you can bake it at home, you can cure it, it can be a finished piece, just popping it in the oven for you know, 30 minutes or more depending on how big your pieces.
Liz Sumner
Amazing. So is there a particular type of clay that’s easier to start with? If you are going to do something like to make bowls or vases or something on a wheel? What’s a good way to start?
Catherine Monahon
That’s a good question. There will be like descriptions of clay where you can see how much grit it has like and grit is basically like little particles of sand that make it more structurally sound and firm to throw with. But the challenges is that some people when they get on the wheel, their hands behave differently. So one person might love throwing with soft buttery clay and their hands just it just works there. Maybe they have a more gentle touch. Maybe they touch the clay less because when you touch it the more you touch the clay, the flimsier it can get.
So people spend a lot of time trying to make something perfect, and then it will ruin it. So the soft buttery clay might be better for some people with a certain touch a certain patience level or competence level and then the firmer clay might be better for people who really want to get in there and you know, like have that strong fingers. I don’t know it’s totally it’s a preference and that’s why it’s important to just try it and then reflect on it and not take it personally if you feel like you’ve failed
Liz Sumner
And tell me about glazes what what what are they made of what do they do?
Catherine Monahon
Glazes contains silica, alumina flux colorants, and modifiers. And basically what all that you need to know is that you dip your piece in after you’ve fired it, once you put it back in the kiln, it heats it up to a very high temperature. And the glaze becomes liquid glass around the ceramic and makes it the ceramic piece and makes it food safe and stronger, and shiny and beautiful. And they can be you can dip different glazes in you can do wax resist, which is when you paint wax on the piece and then glaze it and the places where you painted wax will not get will not get glaze on them. So you can create patterns. There’s lots of ways to experiment.
Liz Sumner
I have a belief that that it’s it’s hard to know exactly what the glaze is going to look like until after it’s been fired. Is that Is that accurate?
Catherine Monahon
Sometimes glaze can be finicky, because maybe your your hands, maybe you got some other glaze on it while you were while you’re glazing it can react differently to if the kiln is loaded in a certain way and it gets hot. At a like it’s fired at a certain way like the actually the way of firing it can change how the glaze looks. And then the how many times you dip it, you can dip it to your piece twice, three times one time, and that will change the color. But a lot of studios will have test tiles where you can see what something will look like. And then, you know, it’s kind of like you have a you have a general sense. However, there are potters and ceramicists that like, glazing is like a science and they figure it out and they test and they test and they enter pieces come out the way that they expect them to, because they really put a lot of time and energy into that aspect of it.
Liz Sumner
And why is it that sometimes things explode in the kiln.
Catherine Monahon
Things can explode in the kiln because the kiln could have been set to the wrong settings and fired too hot, or cool too fast. And they can also explode in the kiln because there are air bubbles inside of the greenware is what we call it, which is when it’s like you’ve just made the piece. It’s dried and you’re ready to cook it for the first time. So if there’s air bubbles inside that expand at a rate greater than the way that the ceramic is the clay is expanding, then it will explode.
Liz Sumner
And is that something that a more experienced potter can feel it when they’re when they’re creating something that they can they can see that there? There would be air bubbles?
Catherine Monahon
Yeah, there’s reasons when when an air bubble is inside, it’s usually because someone has been has like when we wedge the clay. The point of wedging the clay is pressing it into a pattern where all of the particles align and it’s easier to throw or work with, but also to push out any air bubbles. And so if you don’t wedge correctly, or you like accidentally, you know squish in and add bubbles that that’s usually where that occurs. Yeah. And so it’s not I wouldn’t say it’s very common. Once people have a sense for for the clay and when you’re throwing you can feel an air bubble and then you just pop it with a with Yeah, with a pin tool.
Liz Sumner
So I know that you have many artistic pursuits. So where does ceramics fit in and tell us about some of the other things that you love to do.
Catherine Monahon
Yeah, sure, thanks. Um, that is true. I for me, ceramics is kind of like a home where I might have a connection to a studio and then I might need I might move or start a new job and I don’t have as much time to make any more and I might not throw on the wheel for like three years I think that was like the longest I went without throwing on the wheel. But then there’s I always come back to it. I always find people who have a studio or or people who throw on the wheel and I can like nerd out with them and feel connected and also and get access to the studios. And so it’s kind of like a home that I come back to. And the other I’ve just always made art throughout my life.
My grandfather was an artist and he taught me how to draw at a young age. And I’ve just it’s always been like my favorite subject. So yeah, I draw and paint and I write, and I am always making things. So I think in the array of my creative practices, it’s like, clay is how I kind of center myself and come home to myself. It’s not as much how I like craft art and show it to the world. Like I don’t do that as much actually with clay, which is why sometimes it can feel like awkward talking about it, because it feels like it feels like this just sort of like friends that I hang out with throughout my life. But I don’t I don’t put them on display that often.
Liz Sumner
Oh, interesting. That’s really interesting. Okay, so what do you put on display?
Catherine Monahon
Probably writing and audio, audio is yeah, producing the show and publishing essays and bits of writing. And being a copywriter is more like my outward facing, like, “I have opinions. I have thoughts, I will. I have this funny story. And I will tell everyone.” It’s very, like, I have a persona. And it’s not like that in the clay studio in the play studio. I’m like, like, definitely, in my own little world.
Liz Sumner
Well, tell us then tell us more about Material Feels and other audio projects that you have.
Catherine Monahon
Sure, Material Feels is like the main the main audio project for me right now. I started producing it two and a half over two years ago now. And it’s kind of was like my love letter to the material world. And I also I was an art teacher for a long time. And I saw how people, people of all ages would just say things like, I’m not good at art, I’m not creative. And I was just just like that. That’s ridiculous. Like we’re born creative. We are all we all make marks, or in some way, shape, or form. And we all have creative impulses. And so the show was kind of born out of wanting to showcase that and talk about how all different kinds of people have have explored so many different kinds of materials for 1000s of years. And that’s like a part of human culture that is really important. Yeah,
Liz Sumner
And what’s upcoming, what is where are you in your season, and where is Material Feels going?
Catherine Monahon
So I’m in a sort of hiatus period, so I still post episodes every month, but they’re shorter, and it’s mostly me talking. I don’t have guests right now I’m I’m building out season three, and season three is going to be focused a lot on materials that are very close to the land materials that are very embedded in environmentalism and and sort almost like stewarding the land, in a way, and how humans and the land and materials from the land are like, can be in a symbiotic relationship. And that can look like a creative practice. And I am looking for a home for the show. And I’m also thinking of applying for grants like I just season three kind of is, is I’m producing it right now. And I’m going to push it out into the world when I feel like I can, I can have some support around it.
Liz Sumner
So so the dates are to be determined.
Catherine Monahon
Yeah, I would say sometime in 2022. And I’ll just keep on posting the hiatus episodes, you know, 15-25 minutes a month of some kind of exploration of the material, but not my traditional 60-minute documentary.
Liz Sumner
And and what’s next for you outside of that?
Catherine Monahon
I am looking at continue to create an audio I think art and audio is a really beautiful overlap and art education. And so I’m just going to keep pursuing projects related to that where I can either speak about it, write about it, or help other people create content that is aligned.
Liz Sumner
And where can people find out more about you, about Material Feels, about how to support future projects of yours?
Catherine Monahon
That’s a great question. Thanks. So Material Feels has a website such as MaterialFeels podcast.com. You can also find it we have a Patreon so it’d be patreon.com/material feels. And we have Instagram, we have social media, and you can find me I have a website it’s called CXM productions.com. So I call myself CxM. those three letters and then productions.com.
Liz Sumner
And I will put all of those links into the show notes. Do you have courses of your own online available or not?
Catherine Monahon
I do lead workshops, I’ve led a handful of workshops. And I’m, I have curriculum that where I talk about the creative process of building an audio piece, using, like art techniques. And so it’s blending art and audio. And I, that’s the kind of thing that I set up case by case. So I don’t have can’t, you can’t like sign up online, but you can email me. And if you wanted to do something with your organization or with your class, I can I create a class that is tailored to the group.
Liz Sumner
Alright, that sounds good, I will make that information available, too. So what, if anything, would you like to say in conclusion,
Catherine Monahon
I think that, well, if someone’s starting, if someone’s looking to start out and work with clay, I think the most important thing is to just show up, just go and get your hands in the material. And think if you if you struggle with feeling confident in creative endeavors, or if you’re really hard on yourself, I would encourage you to like go with a friend have really low expectations, like just be like, I want to do the thing, and I don’t need it to look a certain way. Just create, like, set yourself up for success in the sense that you will feel safe. Because if you’re feeling like you have to perform if you’re feeling like you have to do a good job. That is not, I don’t think that that’s the best way to approach it because the clay will respond to you. And if you’re like just exploring and centered, you’re going to have a nice experience with the clay. But if you’re pushing the clay to do something that you’re not ready to do, and the clay is not ready to do, you’re going to be frustrated and feel like I’m bad at this.
Liz Sumner
That is really beautiful. And it’s– I don’t do tactile kinds of art. I do more ethereal auditory kinds of things, but you’re making clay sound really attractive so that I might put my hands in some. Thank you so much. This has been absolutely wonderful. I really, I love the way you you speak about it.
Catherine Monahon
Thank you. I feel very privileged and grateful that I have had so much quality time with with a handful of different materials. It really is a gift. And I think that when people are holding themselves back from exploring a material it’s like a disservice to themselves. Like if you have any, any inkling that you might want to try it like I think you should go for it.
Liz Sumner
That’s my philosophy. I completely agree.
Catherine Monahon
Yeah, yeah, I know. I’ve been reading about you on your on your website and listening to some of your episodes. And I think I just love what you do. I think it’s so important.
Liz Sumner
Thank you. My thanks to Catherine Monahon. You can find out more about Catherine Material Feels and CxM productions in the show notes. I invite everyone to write and tell me what you’ve always wanted to try. I’m Liz Sumner, reminding you to be bold, and thanks for listening
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CREDITS
Theme song written by Michael Cohen https://michaelcohenmusic.com and performed by Complicated People https://complicatedpeople.com
Additional music by Michael Cohen
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