This episode is a compilation of my favorite excerpts from my most popular podcasts– the series on Learning To Sing. In putting this together I see the same themes expressed by each of my guests. Singing is joyful and expresses who we are. That vulnerability can be frightening and easily trampled. But there are excellent teachers available to help us get over our fears and rediscover the joy.
In part one, Nancy Salwen talks about her debilitating stagefright and how that led her to create the Fear of Singing Breakthrough Program. In part two, Judy Fine talks more about overcoming performance anxiety, and giving yourself permission– to be where you are, to not be perfect instantly. She also makes a great case for singers learning music theory both for the musical reasons and also for the additional confidence it gives us when working with other musicians.
Then we finish with a mini jazz master class from Isabella Celentano on improvising on the blues using the pentatonic scale. I thought this was magical when I took a class with her a couple of summers ago. She explains that there are 5 notes that fit in each of the 3 chords in a 12-bar blues. You can sing any of them and they will be in tune. This is part of that singers learning music theory. When you know these 5 notes you can improvise on any blues in any key. Magic.
Lastly I feel I must mention that these episodes are from early in the podcast and I’ve learned a lot about recording since then. I apologize for the funkiness of the sound. The original episodes were released May 21, 2018, January 28th 2019, and November 18th 2019. If you like the content in this compilation I hope you’ll listen to the originals to learn more about my wonderful guests.
Here are their bios:
Nancy Salwen teaches singing to “non-singers,” beginners and anyone who wants to sing more comfortably and expressively.
She is the author of the book (and online program), “The Fear of Singing Breakthrough Program: Learn to Sing Even if You Think You Can’t Carry a Tune!” She leads singing workshops in Vermont, New York City and California, offers online programs, and teaches lessons in-person and over Skype (or FaceTime).
To learn more about Nancy and what she has to offer, visit www.fearofsinging.com, or email her at [email protected].
With a Master of Music in Composition and a penchant for encouraging others to follow their passion, Judy Fine has been teaching and performing popular music styles for two decades, as a singer, keyboardist and sometimes trombonist. Over the years, she has performed in a variety of musical projects, from an original solo act to groups as big as a ten-piece wedding band. Formerly the owner of the Singers and Musicians Studio, a performance-based pop music school in Keene, NH, Judy now coaches aspiring singers in the Cape Coral, FL area and runs Online with Judy Fine, an online teaching and advice resource for singers.
Website: www.OnlineWithJudyFine.com
Facebook: @OnlineWithJudyFine (Judy Fine Vocal Coach)
Instagram: @OnlineJudyFine
YouTube: @OnlineJudyFine
Isabella Celentano teaches singing at Civica Scuola di Musica Paolo Soprani in Castelfidardo, and Zona Musica and Cantieri Musicale in Ancona, Italy. Isabella sings regularly with the Reunion Jazz Band among others. She is the vocal maestra for Fabrijazz, a weeklong summer program for singers and musicians of all ages, presented by Fabrianopromusica.it.
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Transcript
Nancy Salwen
You know, if it’s sort of something that’s been in your bucket list or something that even on some level you kind of wish you could do but you felt held back. Or even if you do sing, but you feel like you’re not really in it or expressing yourself, just to step in and try it because you know, singing, singing can be scary, but singing also has in it,what it takes to not be scared.
Liz Sumner
Hi, everyone. This episode is a compilation of my favorite excerpts from my most popular podcasts, the series on learning to sing. In putting this together, I see the same things expressed by each of my guests. Singing is joyful and expresses who we are, that vulnerability can be frightening and easily trampled. But there are excellent teachers available to help us get over our fears and rediscover the joy. In part one. Nancy Salwen talks about her debilitating stage fright, and how that led her to create the fear of singing breakthrough program. In part two, Judy Fine talks more about overcoming performance anxiety and giving yourself permission to be where you are not to be perfect instantly. She also makes a great case for singers learning music theory, both for the musical reasons and also for the additional confidence it gives us when working with other musicians. Then we finish with a mini jazz masterclass from Isabella Celentano on improvising on the blues using the pentatonic scale. I thought this was magical when I took a class with her a couple of summers ago, she explains that there are five notes that fit in each of the three chords in a 12 bar blues, you can sing any of them and there’ll be in tune. And this is part of that singers learning music theory. When you know these five notes, you can improvise on any blues in any key magic. Lastly, I feel I must mention that these episodes are from early in the podcast, and I’ve learned a lot about recording since then. I apologize for the funkiness of the sound. The original episodes were released on May 21 2018, January 28 2019, and November 18 2019. If you like the content in this compilation, I hope you’ll listen to the originals to learn more about my wonderful guests. Their bios are in the shownotes here are the interview excerpts. First up Nancy Salwen.
Nancy Salwen
So anyway, I was very immersed in this world of singing, but I had an experience where, where which really blindsided me where I was I was in England actually in a folk festival and I took a mic and I was going to sing a song, just I didn’t really think much about it. And I got up there and I had such stage fright that my voice started shaking, I couldn’t sing on pitch, I couldn’t remember the words, it was just a very sort of surprising. And it was an experience that really changed how I felt about about singing it not in that I stopped singing but that I really drew a line for myself that I would not ever perform.
Liz Sumner
so but you had been performing before or just with
Nancy Salwen
Never– just always, as part of the community
Liz Sumner
Oh, okay. And so this was an early solo performance is that?
Nancy Salwen
Yeah, I just kind of got up there and said, Okay, I’ll sing a song and then wham.
Liz Sumner
Wow.
Nancy Salwen
Yeah. So, so that kind of, I think that happened. There may have been other little things that happened where I expected myself to feel comfortable and didn’t. And so I really drew a line for myself. Like I said, for fun, I sing with one or two other people if we are singing in harmony or whatever, I’ll sing in a big group. But even leading a song I think really sort of brought up that feeling of fear. And so I just stayed away from it. But when I had my daughter at about 35 My first kid, I just remember turning to my husband one day and saying, you know, everything’s great, except I’m not singing. And I didn’t even sing. I mean if I sang in the car with him it was kind of subdued. You know there were there certain friends I would sing with and I would go to singing camp sometimes. But but it wow wasn’t interesting. got through. It did and I don’t know if it was just that one event but but that idea just that this is what it is. It’s like a thing you do on your own, but you can’t. You can’t.
Liz Sumner
Wow.
Nancy Salwen
Yeah, yeah. So I ended up finding I mean, there’s this whole little progression I found people in the neighborhood to, I asked a friend of mine who’s a musician, do you know anybody who gets together and sings. So it turned out there were some people who were just getting together every week in their living rooms and sort of rotating from house to house. And that was really fun. And it was it kind of brought that back. And then I joined a women’s chorus that I was part of for seven years, and like you’re six, or five, or six or something, I finally decided to go ahead and sing a solo, which turned out not to be a solo, but a duet. So I auditioned and I got it. And we did this duet, and had the chorus backing us up. And it was a real trip, it was so much fun, but scary, but like a rush and awesome. Because I myself was so consciously dealing with my fear of singing in public and my fear, fears around singing, and really aware of how I was affected by my fear and how it affected me both physically and mentally. And that that seemed like an obvious thing to to deal with head on directly, rather than to kind of just try to teach singing in somehow bypass the whole Oh, yeah. So and it also became really, really interesting to me, and, and something to deal with in these workshops and to invite people who are afraid to come to the workshops by calling them fear of seeing breakthrough workshops. And so after the first workshop, I was just like, oh, well, this is like, this is my thing. Like, I figured this out, this is my thing.
Liz Sumner
In the full episode, Nancy explains more about her process to overcome her fear and become a singing teacher. Here she tells about her program, and then gives examples of some of the ways we get shut down and stop singing when we’re young.
Nancy Salwen
It’s interesting, um, a lot of people who come to me have experienced and had a negative experience around singing– not everybody, but at least I’d say half you know, if I was going to, and the negative experience could be something as as, what’s a seemingly tiny thing. We were all singing in the car, and I was having a really good time. And my cousin looked at me funny. You know, like, or a very common one around. This is my mother’s actually. My fourth grade course teacher told me just mouth the words. Oh, ouch. super common. Yeah.
Liz Sumner
Oh, oh, that’s Oh, I hope that person isn’t a music teacher anymore. No.
Nancy Salwen
Like, really? Yeah, sometimes there’s just almost minute like, like, um, one woman I work with, said that somebody turned, she always thought she could sing her grandmother she grew up in, in Russia and her grandparents were her grandmothers were always like saying, saying, you know, you sing so beautifully. And then she moved here. And she was singing and somebody turned to her and said, and that was it. She says, she just wow. And she just stopped, you know. And so the take home or takeaway from that is, we’re so sensitive and vulnerable. When it comes to singing, I, it feels so good. It feels it’s such a release, it’s so much us, you know, it’s such a, it’s, it’s such a revealing thing to do. It’s such a it connects us with other people and it connects our inside to our outside, you know, what’s going on inside Express, expressing ourselves. And so when when something comes in, no one criticizes you or hurts you, when something when you experience a feeling of being shut down in any way. Even if it’s a tiny thing, you’re just so sensitive about it that, that it’s kind of devastating. And so a lot of people come to me, after having had some kind of experience, usually in the early early life, that has stopped them from singing, and a lot of the people who come to me are older. And so they’ve had this long stretch of lifetime, where everybody else is singing around the campfire or singing in church or whatever and you know, oming during yoga class, whatever it is, and they’re kind of tucking it in and keeping it in and feeling like they can’t be part of it or participate. And, and so all the time everybody else has been kind of practicing without thinking of it as practicing but they have been they’ve been comparing and contrasting what they’re hearing to what’s coming out of their mouth. They haven’t really had a chance to do that. And so they’re coming. It’s almost like they’re needing to return turn to a place of childhood and freedom and being nurtured into to feeling like they’re not going to get judged. And they can be free to start to explore their own voice and the sensations that come around singing that tell you whether you’re on pitch or you’re not on pitch. And so So I would say that people who come to me often are at a place in their life where they’re, they’re ready to take a chance and redefine themselves in some way and say, you know, I know that my whole family laughed at me or whatever and said I was the non singer, but I I’m ready to challenge that idea.
Judy Fine
Liz Sumner
Next up is singing and confidence coach Judy Fine. Judy was also my guest on being a songwriter in May of 2020. Check it out in the back catalogue. And Judy has some great online resources for singers at OnlinewithJudyFine.com.
Liz Sumner
I think of you as focusing on bringing out the star quality of people is that accurate?
Judy Fine
Absolutely. yeah, I would say that just bringing out what the real musician and artist is in you, and trying to bring that out whether you’re a little kid or you’re an adult. And a lot of that is just, you can’t choreograph it so much. You have to sort of find your way of connecting with the song, and then put it out there. And so a lot of new new performers are ours kind of shy, and they act out a lot of things and that sort of thing. So my my overall advice for performers is to imagine that they’re telling their speaking the story to someone. So for example, I just said speaking, and that was just a natural thing. But I didn’t say “speaking.” Or just “imagine that you’re speaking.” Yes, be natural, and not overdone. And the most important aspect is that you connect with it. So it’s on your face. And the things you do just happen naturally. So you want it to be as important music, especially, you want it to be as speech like as possible, if that makes sense.
Liz Sumner
What’s the difference between singing and performing?
Judy Fine
Anybody can sing, and not be connected. Like you could be making words come out of your mouth, but not be connecting with them and not be convincing the human any of it. One thing I tell some of my students to do is to record themselves on the phone, they record themselves, and then watch it back without the volume. And then tell me if you can tell the mood of the song, the you know, the rhythmic feel of the song, something like that. Because if you’re not portraying that with your body, then you’re not really connecting with it, not the words and not the music.
Liz Sumner
That’s that I can imagine that being really, really useful. Absolutely, I used to go to open mics. And I would sit there and I’d people open your eyes, you know, look at the audience.
Judy Fine
Super common, that’s fear, you’re just trying to put a wall between you and your audience. That’s why some people wear sunglasses too. And I have told students because that’s a huge fear, right? So performance anxiety, is the very core like our self worth is tied up. And not only getting up and performing for someone, but in our voices. So much of your self worth is just tied up in the quality of your voice. Some people can’t listen to themselves, you know, recorded on their voicemail or whatever they can’t stand their voice, because there’s so much self worth tied up in it. So, so you want to sometimes just have an instinct to separate the audience from us. I have had students who are who had a lot of performance anxiety that I said, Okay, I encourage a lot of my students to go to karaoke, if not all my students to go to karaoke. It’s an awesome way to practice performing. You bring your friends, they’re usually drinking. So they’re not really getting all the details. You can even have them come up and do the first song with you. So there’s a group thing you get kind of comfortable on stage. But I’ve even said you know what, the first time you go wear sunglasses, if you want to wear sunglasses, like do baby steps if you need to, who cares? There’s no rules. Just Just get yourself there. But yeah, you want to open your eyes. Sure. Yeah. And it wasn’t until I was on the verge of 30. And I sort of started my life over you could say, or started my life, that I really got back to music the way I wanted to do it. And that was you know, I formed bands and I made a CD and, and I worked jobs that just helped me pay my bills that were just enough to pay my bills, so I could do what I wanted musically. So I hadn’t. I hadn’t given myself permission to just embrace the joy that music brought me I was very like people these people think I should teach in a in a university setting and that’s really respectable, so I think I’ll get a master’s degree. For years I wrote my you know, a student loan check. It’s awful.
Liz Sumner
I just I love the fact that you’re talking about permission because that’s what I’ve been working with clients on wasn’t just absolutely giving yourself permission that that’s, that’s key.
Judy Fine
It’s so–it’s extra key with singing, because you’re getting to the part that I’m really passionate about. So I might get kind of excited here. But there is something about singing that people do that they don’t do in any other field, there’s this, it’s two things, there’s a sense that you’re supposed to be born, you know, amazing already. Otherwise, you shouldn’t bother doing it, which is a ridiculous concept that we don’t apply to any other fields, right? Nobody goes to school and says, Well, I’m not good at math. So my mom says, I shouldn’t bother taking math class. It’s ridiculous. It’s a ridiculous concept. But the other thing is, like, there’s in the same vein, there’s like this worthiness concept, like, you have to somehow be worthy of spending money or time or whatever, on singing. And it’s not just enough that you enjoy it, and you want to pursue a passion. And the thing is that you get from giving yourself goosebumps makes, things that you get from from pursuing a passion are so important. It’s like eating your vegetables and getting your exercise. It makes you healthier, and makes you happier. I couldn’t agree. I’m trying to rein myself in.
Liz Sumner
No, please don’t, because this is the same same thing that I get very excited about. So so please, go for it.
Judy Fine
And that’s the thing. I mean, I suppose we all try to offer what we didn’t get when we were kids, right? So I didn’t have someone saying, you know, like, sort of reaching in and finding me and this pulling that out and saying do this you can do this, I have people like you should, you know, don’t upset other people and,
Liz Sumner
and it’s okay to do it, even when you make a couple of wrong notes or make a mistake, or you’re not perfect right out of the box.
Judy Fine
Totally. I very recently just made this rant video on my YouTube channel about and I don’t really do rant videos, but a parent pulled her her daughter out is like stopped doing lessons after three lessons because she felt like she wasn’t seeing progress. Three lessons. This is what this was my face on the video three lessons. Her daughter loved singing, she couldn’t wait to you know what I mean? So it just breaks my heart that there’s this like worthiness thing you have to prove yourself. No, you you don’t have to, you know, don’t spend your mortgage money on your mortgage payments, but budget in singing lessons. How could it be dead one day? Yeah, like, what are you saving? That? You know, what are you holding back for? That is like my primary that’s like who I am? Yep. Like live your life. And and it’s important to do it in a way that doesn’t hurt other aspects of your life like financially. But you don’t need to prove your worthiness to pursue things that make you feel good.
Liz Sumner
Yes. Tell me more about why singers need to learn music theory.
Judy Fine
There are lots of reasons. I mean, there are very specific, you know, reasons specific to music, like, you want to be able to figure out how to harmonize, you need to understand what the chord is and be able to find out a lot of people, you know, if the melody singing this note, they try to find a third above it, and then just mirror the melody, you can start out okay with that. But at some point, you’re going to be singing a note that’s not in the chord. And you need to understand that and how to figure that out. Your timing will be better your ends, which will make your entrances better, all kinds of things you’ll just be you’ll get better at nailing pitches, if you’re doing things with music theory and sort of hearing how it goes and understanding scales and things like that. And then in a more just sort of lifestyle kind of way. This is especially true for women. So a lot of lead singers or bands are females and all the instrumentalists are male, that’s not always the case, but it’s very often. And as females we already have this sort of, you know, we might not know it, but we’re already conditioned to kind of feel less than and then you go into a situation with all these musicians who are speaking music and you don’t know how to speak it and you’re you feel even less like appear. When I first opened the Singers and Musicians Studio in New Hampshire, I wanted to call it the Musicians Studio. And I sort of I, you know, shared that idea with a bunch of friends to see what they thought. And every single one of them. It was like five or six people, every single one of them said, but I thought you also teach singing, because people don’t see singers as musicians. Yeah. And I think singers should break that norm.
Liz Sumner
Yes. Yeah. And I think you’re right, that that learning learning theory is is a good way to make you a part of the group empower you.
Judy Fine
Yeah, it empowers us. And you don’t have to go crazy with it. You just need to understand a little bit.
Isabella Celentano
Liz Sumner
My final guest is Isabella Celentano, who is speaking here in her second language, explaining how the pentatonic scale works. Even if you’re unfamiliar with music theory, listen to her tell about the fundamentals of improvising on the blues with notes and rhythm.
Isabella Celentano
For example, let’s try with a Blues. Blues are 12 bars, and you can take the same scale for all the 12 bars and after the first chorus there is again one chorus 12 bars. And you can begin with minor pentatonic that means minor blue scales as blues scale without the augmented fourth. And so I have five notes, pentatonic five notes, the same, the the chords are changing and you can sing the same note on every chord you’re playing. If you want I can do something on the piano,
Liz Sumner
that would be great.
Isabella Celentano
One Okay, for example, I have Okay, we have we have some chords with the seven with the minor seven and the third seventh, even if there are chords, which are major chords, you know, a major chord as a major third, but we have in the scale, minor third. And this is the minor blues scale, okay so you don’t have you just have five notes, you can improvise on the spot notes. And so you have to exercise your ear and your voice to call a note. Even if you think it’s not, it’s not right because it’s very– how do you say. Not harmonic, come si dice dissonante,
Liz Sumner
Dissonant.
Isabella Celentano
We have I play the major third. And on on the scale is okay. [Isabella sings]
Liz Sumner
Oh, okay. Okay,
Isabella Celentano
this is one. The other one is the tonic Tonica is okay [sings] This one. And I have to play the safest because it’s okay. Even if it sounds a little bit strange It’s okay.
Liz Sumner
But it sounds very cool
Isabella Celentano
and then seven minor seven, [sings] minor seven. Okay, I played and then it’s okay. Okay, but when I play another chord of the of the blues, the fourth I always have to sing the same for example the seven this one play this [sings] doo doo doo
Liz Sumner
that sounds stranger than
Isabella Celentano
[sings] doo dop
Liz Sumner
okay, okay I hear it now
Isabella Celentano
if I play the other chord it’s Sol settimo, G seven and I played you seven [sings]
Liz Sumner
Okay, okay
Isabella Celentano
very nice [sings] doo doo okay, yes, my minor third on a major third. Okay, and it’s sounds strange to somebody who has not, who does not know the blues, but you have everybody I say to everybody, you have to listen to blues, you have to listen to the big bands, you have to listen to this old music, otherwise you cannot be a good jazz singer. The difference between a good pop singer, a good contemporary singer, and a good jazz singer, is that the good jazz singer has to have the blues, has to have the blues, it means it has to have a color in the voice. And I’m always speaking about this flood of sentimental things that has to come out, you know, there must be something spiritual inside, you know, yeah, even if you even do if you don’t believe in God, but there has to be something you you want to say to somebody. Yes, that’s what I mean. And then you you have to have the swing, you know, you have to have the swing. And swing means dynamic, forte piano, not always the same. And you have to have swing it means triplets, you know, not do-da-doo-da-doo-da, but doo da, doo da, doo da, doo da. That’s the difference between somebody who sings very good pop or sings very good contemporary music, and sings all notes, which are written and somebody who sings jazz and improvises and puts maybe very, very small improvisation, but something that makes this song not the same as the song that you sing or the song– or even if it’s the same song. And today, I sing it like this and tomorrow sing it in another way. And so if we turn back to the pentatonic, you can sing every song of these five songs with the chord. I play C7 and I play [sings] 1, 3, 4, 5, 7 5, 4, 3, 1. 1, 3, 4, 5, and then you can improvise rhythmical, rhythmical improvisation for jazz is very important. Okay, this is what I say no, it’s much more important than melodic improvisation. Because we’re three notes, you can do very good improvisation with three notes. Just listen to as I said, Lester Young or or Satchmo. Or even Chet Baker. Okay. So you don’t have to do a lot. But if you put a track, there are some Ebersole tracks with with the blues in all scales, and you just have to do you sing improvisation on the first one. Just do number one.
Liz Sumner
Okay. Okay
Isabella Celentano
[sings] 1 , 1, 1, And and then you do 3, 3 minor 3rd doo doo. is blues now and then the fourth [sings] doo doo
Isabella Celentano
I just begin with do it’s okay you can say swap do dop sweebidoo why and everything but just begin with do. Do is always good and you can say afterwards did do bop bop bop Ba doo da doo doo dup and prefer do on beat and ba on off beat doo ba doo Ba doo doo doo ba doo ba doo Ba doo da. okay then you go ahead and number five and number 7 [sings] doo doo
Isabella Celentano
Okay, make lots of pauses. Dodadodadoda– no no no no pause [demonstrates pauses] do dot but the dude up. Okay and even make improvisation without melody so you can get ideas– rhythmical ideas [demonstrates rhythmical scatting]. So you have in your head, you have melody, but you try to make dynamic do dodoo dodoo dodoo dodoo. dodoo. dodoo, dodoo. And then you if you try to separate rhythmical from melodic you have a good exercise to eccitare– to exercise you have you can well exercise your ear and your creativity because the rhythmical it’s your creativity, you know do a do a doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo bap and then you can put this creativity on one on one note. And then you can put it on two notes. And then you can put it on three notes. And you could put it on four notes. And then you could put it on five notes. And this is with the pentatonic and then you can do this one this is augmented fourth and so you can [demonstrates scatting on pentatonic scale].
Liz Sumner
My thanks to Nancy salwen, Judy fine and Isabella Celentano, you can find out how to reach them in the show notes. I invite everyone to write and tell me what you’ve always wanted to try. If you got value from this podcast, please tell your friends, share it on social media, or leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser. I’m grateful to all of you who support the show at patreon.com/alwayswanted. I’m Liz Sumner, reminding you to be bold. And thanks for listening.